Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

[Strat-o-rama]

Bob, Raygun, this whole thread has been enlightening. Personally, I like the 60C for a "modern" take on surf. I typically play through a Fender Tank and a Deluxe Memoryman, into Fender or Musicman amps. I have NEVER thought the sound muddy, and with the amp set with the treble up a bit (compared to a Strat or JM setting), that bridge pickup can decapitate with high end presence.
Raygun, do you know if Rick Miller is gigging with his Hallmarks/Mosrites, or using them strictly in the studio?

Paul,
While we're on pick-ups. Have you run a comparison between your Hallmark and your Kurokumo?

[Bob Shade]

(do you know if Rick Miller is gigging with his Hallmarks/Mosrites, or using them strictly in the studio?)

Rick uses a Danelectro short horn live because it is hollow and light due to his bad back. I sent him one of our 67 pickups for the bridge a long while ago because he does not like lipstick tubes for his sound.

Bob

[raygun85]

Bob, Raygun, this whole thread has been enlightening. Personally, I like the 60C for a "modern" take on surf. I typically play through a Fender Tank and a Deluxe Memoryman, into Fender or Musicman amps. I have NEVER thought the sound muddy, and with the amp set with the treble up a bit (compared to a Strat or JM setting), that bridge pickup can decapitate with high end presence.

EXACTLY! That's what I'm trying to say. The Hallmark pickups are in their own class.

[raygun85]

(do you know if Rick Miller is gigging with his Hallmarks/Mosrites, or using them strictly in the studio?)

Rick uses a Danelectro short horn live because it is hollow and light due to his bad back. I sent him one of our 67 pickups for the bridge a long while ago because he does not like lipstick tubes for his sound.

Bob

According to Rick when he called to place an order, he had been using his Mosrite on their last tour and was unhappy with the microphonics. He wanted my opinion on wax potting. I gave him my honest opinion - that I don't think it'll make too much difference unless you're playing at high volumes or using fuzz/overdrive; controlled feedback (that's a bit of an oxymoron, eh? )...etc...which his answer was pretty much D, all of the above. He said something about wanting to start playing Mosrites again and that he was thinking about using it in the studio next time. The RH-100's are fairly quiet pickups, like the stock Hallmarks. The Dual Tones are great for switching between more Jazzmaster/P-90 tones and the typical Mosrite tone, but they buzz more like an old Strat, depending on the room, wiring, fluorescent or neon lighting...etc.. But I'm pretty sure it's because I reversed the output wires from the ground when making the taps. Newer versions will be reversed. But I'm also working on a hum-cancelling version of the Dual Tones for Mel's next guitar.

But the RH-100's are fairly quiet. When we first started making them, we were only trying to duplicate an authentic Mosrite tone and weren't worried about noise, but we also employed manufacturing techniques that lend themselves to hum-reducing tones such as, which wires we use for the hot & ground leads, grounding the magnets and poles, using conductive shielding...etc...and so our method of manufacturing just resulted in quieter pickups. We've had a lot of compliments on that for the RH-100's. But anyway, Rick just ordered another set of RH-100 pickups a month or two ago.

[Veenture]

Paul, While we're on pick-ups. Have you run a comparison between your Hallmark and your Kurokumo?

Not in a strict laboratory sense. When I played the Kurokumo (through the exact same gear) I did find the Kurokumo Super Excellent pups to sound a notch brighter and also punchier than my Hallmark 60C's. The pots on my Kurokumo though, are 500K. Having been brought up on Fender Strats, I have to say that I shall never forget the thrill of hearing for the first time the sound of my Hallmark. It encouraged me to play more Ventures tunes than ever before!
(The Kurokumo joined my little family of guitars after the Hallmark)

[Bob Shade]

Paul, thanks for the comparison and mentioning the 500K pots. They do let more power out. I made a run of 60C's with 500K pots and some guys did not care for them as much. To my surprise, Dan Moses from the Dynotones begged me to try 500K pots, but after we did, he decided through his Fuzzrite it made the 60C sound too raspy. He likes the fuzz sound better with the 250K's so I switched back to those for all round good tone. The pickups have plenty of output for 250's.

It is nice for guys to know that the 500's will give you a bit more kick if that is what you are looking for. I plugged a early 60C prototype in today. I like the stock pickups with the 250K pots too. They just sound right to me.

Bob

[raygun85]

Paul, thanks for the comparison and mentioning the 500K pots. They do let more power out. I made a run of 60C's with 500K pots and some guys did not care for them as much. To my surprise, Dan Moses from the Dynotones begged me to try 500K pots, but after we did, he decided through his Fuzzrite it made the 60C sound too raspy. He likes the fuzz sound better with the 250K's so I switched back to those for all round good tone. The pickups have plenty of output for 250's.

It is nice for guys to know that the 500's will give you a bit more kick if that is what you are looking for. I plugged a early 60C prototype in today. I like the stock pickups with the 250K pots too. They just sound right to me.

Bob

I, too, prefer 250K pots. But it only makes any real difference when you turn them down. This is part of the "hooey" that I was addressing in my earlier posts.

So, what do you mean about 'letting power out'? A potentiometer is only a variable resistor and the value only determines the total resistance. Moving the wiper up and down varies the resistance between 0 and 250K ohms on a 250K pot; and between 0 and 500K ohms on a 500K pot. At 0 resistance (a.k.a. "10" or, "all the way up" on your volume/tone knob), there is no resistance. You can't get less resistance than zero. When you move the wiper down, you are increasing the resistance and bleeding part of the signal to ground. On a 500K linear-taper pot, theoretically speaking, you'll have 250K ohms of resistance at 50% (in actuality it's usually more or less). In reality, the pot itself can add a load to the signal, that's why Fender offer's 'no-load' pots. However, bypassing a 250K pot vs. a 500K pot still has the same effect, just as zero resistance has the same effect regardless of the value of resistance.

As for passive pickups, they produce a very low energy potential (aka "voltage") and therefore there is no actual "power" to speak of. Active pickups actually require lower-value pots due to the fact that they do produce a voltage, at which point, the pot becomes a voltage controller (sort of like a dimmer switch in your house.)

So....I'm really scratching my head on this one. How does a potentiometer 'let any power out'?

[jfine]

I had 500Kohm pots installed in my 60 Custom as I wanted to get a little more high end out of it. They did open up the sound of the pickups a bit, but my tech used pots that he had laying around and they have somewhat of an abrupt taper compared to the old 250Kohm ones. He said he could get 500K pots with a better taper--he's installing a new 5-way switch in one of my other guitars now; when I go to pick it up I'll ask him if he ever got the new pots in. I've also considered getting Bob Shade to wind me a set of custom pickups--the stock ones sound fine, but ideally I'd like to have a little more sparkle, more like a moderate-output P-90 or a Jazzmaster. That would be cool, especially if he's got any more of those blue pearloid pickup covers like he was using on the Gospel guitar--that would look great on my Surf Pearl 60C!

[Strat-o-rama]

Raygun,
I took Bob's statement about power as more the "feeling for the player", speaking in layman's terms. I have a buddy who changed out my Strat pots to 500K, and I had them changed right back. It was just way over the top--supercharged--and not to my liking. It "felt like" too much power.
Jfine brought up the question of sparkle. Wouldn't an underwound pickup do that. Has anyone tried a Mosrite style wound to say about 8.0 or 8.5? Of course, you may lose the traditional Mo tone...

[raygun85]

I don't mean to sound like a greasy salesman but that's pretty much what the lower output setting sounds like on the Dual Tones. The taps are usually wound around 7.5K. Mel's guitar has the pickup's taps graduated from the neck to the bridge. I think it's 7.5, 8.0, 8.5. I can't remember.

Usually, what you loose is your high-end frequencies with more passive electronic gizmos in your guitar. Otherwise referred to as 'clarity', 'presence', 'sparkle'...etc...I know a guy who uses 57/62 pickups in his Strats with 1M pots because he wants the most "clarity" he can get. Clarity may be a rather accurate way to describe it since it's really a matter of loading the signal and dampening your higher frequencies. But boy, do his guitars sound BRIGHT! Like that ear-splitting treble I mentioned earlier...

jfine, the reason why the taper sounds abrupt is because you're probably used to audio log pots and your friend probably used linear taper pots. A linear taper pot will be at 50% of it's total resistance when it is at the half-way point on the track ("5" on your volume/tone knob), but our ears don't interpret sounds on a linear scale. So it doesn't sound like 50%, instead our ears interpret it as more like 80% or 90%. So the make audio log pots to compensate for this difference and give us a smoother taper.

My Hallmark has linear taper pots in it. But it doesn't matter, the pots will be changed quite frequently as I experiment with it.