TREMOLO TUNING STABILITY PROBLEM... ?

[reverserite]

Hello,

I am fronting a problem of tuning stability on the tremolo of my GUN Guitars Mosrite Venture replica (see oigun's "New LEFTY" topic). Here it is :

- The tremolo lever doesn't strictly return in place when released, no matter the amplitude of tremolo-ing I do : there is a gap in position of 3-4mm in the distance taken from the lever tip to the table of the guitar, where I should find zero (= strict return) like on my Bigsby-fitted guitars and my Strats.

- I check a resulting detune is + / - 20 cents from pitch with my KORG OT-120 precision tuner. This is clearly audible and forces me to retune the guitar until the next use of the trem. None of my other guitars with Bigsby or Strat trems exceed + /- 2 cents at max when severe tremolo use, and no detune is checked when gentle use.

The strings that I use are Ernie Ball 10-52, like on all my other guitars, and here the set is fresh and just run-in to reach string stability.

Is it a well-known Mosrite tremolo design failure ?

Is there anyone here fronting the same detune problem on his Mosrite tremolo ?

Any tip, any advice is welcome... Other than non-use or removal of the tremolo itself, indeed !





A+!

[BRRanger]

I dunno, my Mosrite tremolos all return properly, I don't have a Gun trem, nor have I seen one in the flesh so don't know how they differ.
Scott

[SanchoPansen]

I have the exact same problem on my Fillmore...

[reverserite]

Thanks BBRanger and SanchoPansen for your experience.

That's interesting : BBRanger has no tuning issue and conversely, SanchoPansen fronts the same detuning problems as with my tremolo. I would like to understand why, then...

In the meantime, I have found this article about Mosrite tremolo tuning stability issue - exactly the same as us, SanchoPansen - and a possible cure :

http://theawesomepowerofrockets.blogspot.fr/2011/03/2011-repairs-mosrite-ventures.html

The man speaks about some kind of roughness he noticed in the needle bearings of its tremolo that he could eliminate by a polishing of the tremolo axle. According to him, after this treatment, it doesnt show detuning issue or instability anymore.

Here is how is built my tremolo :









Are your Mosrite tremolos built the same manner ? Or what are the detail differences compared to mine ?

Thanks & A+!

[Greg_L]

I don't have hands-on experience with your tremolo. I have a Hallmark 60C with the "Shade" trem on it and it seems fine to me.

But looking at this strictly from a design standpoint, It seems to me that there are only 4 points of contact that could cause this problem.
1) Nut/string guide binding and not letting the trem spring snap back to neutral position.
2) Sticky roller saddle or unstable bridge.
3) Faulty roller bearing in trem unit or bad fitment
4) Weak spring.

1, 2, and 4 are easy fixes. 3 could be a real problem. Go after the easy stuff first.

[Bob Shade]

I have fixed a bunch of Fillmore vibratos with this problem. It is not exactly an easy fix but it can be done.

These tailpieces do not have bearings which is a major problem. Why they missed this critical component is beyond me. They have a sleeve that holds the pin. A sleeve is not a bearing and will not work on this tailpiece.

I drilled the tailpieces out to take the correct bearings, then drilled the rocker pin hole out to accept a new rod I made as the Fillmore rod is not the correct size for the actual bearings, and lastly made a new rod for the bearings. The tailpiece will work fine after this work is done. You will also need a new set of bearings to install.

I can fix your Fillmore vibrato if you do not want to attempt it yourself as I said, we make our own tailpieces here at Hallmark and I am very familiar with how they need to be made to perform perfectly, that is why ours stay in tune. I just fixed a Fillmore for a forum member not long ago, his would not stay in tune either. He refused to believe it was a common problem on a Fillmore guitar like I tried to explain. He was kind of upset he spent so much loot on it and it would not stay in tune. I told him I could fix it, as I have been sandcasting and making vibratos the old fashioned way for a very long time and know how to make them work perfectly. I fixed it for him and he was very happy with the tailpiece as it works correctly now.

On the gun vibrato, I would like to see a close up of the bearing on the side of the vibrato. Then I can help further on that guitar.

Best returns, Bob Shade

[reverserite]

Thank you guys for your constructive input,

@Greg_L :

But looking at this strictly from a design standpoint, It seems to me that there are only 4 points of contact that could cause this problem.
1) Nut/string guide binding and not letting the trem spring snap back to neutral position.
2) Sticky roller saddle or unstable bridge.
3) Faulty roller bearing in trem unit or bad fitment
4) Weak spring.

1 = No, checked as OK, by pressing strings over nut and bridge, and bending. Adding a slight lubrication doesn't change anything.
2 = No, checked as OK, the TonePros bridge rolls as it should and is stable (pressing screw on the posts).
3 = I would consider this problem to be the keypoint, relying on the article about that I posted a link in my previous post.
4 = That's also a possibility, even if the spings seems OK to me. Maybe a stiffer sping could attenuate the detuning...

@Bob Shade :

Thanks for your experience. This leds me to think that it is probably the main problem affecting my GUN Trem, which is otherwise well-built. Here are the side view you requested :









Please let me know your advice,

Thanks & A+!

[Bob Shade]

I have never seen that brand of bearing before. ( Russian?) I can only assume he did some homework before ordering them. Since I have never seen them, I do not know what the interior of the bearing looks like which is the important part of the bearing. I am not saying the bearings are not working properly, but I suppose it would be alot of trouble to remove the pin and take pictures of the inside of the bearing. That would tell me more. Also can you tell what type of metal the rod is made of? I use stainless steel.

Best, Bob

[ludobag]

On mine i haven t trouble but have put a stronger spring du of m'y gauge 10 52 ,mosrite are more fitted with lighter string generally
Try another spring before dismantled all
I have order 2 Springs for m'y trem an the softer don t Handle well big string

[reverserite]

@Bob Shade :

The needle bearings comes from Slovakia, as I read it. The shaft is made from stainless steel, but I think that a calibrated hardened steel (hardened ground shaft) would be better here. Maybe there is also some kind of misalignment. Before dismantling anything, I am waiting for more information from GUN Guitars.

@ludobag :

I also have 2 springs which came with the guitar : one softer, one stiffer. The softer one is not suitable for 10-52. The stiffer one seems to be correct à priori but why not having a test with an even stiffer one, yes...

The spring that I use has the following dimensions :

Free lenght = 25.7mm
External diameter = 16mm
Wire diameter = 2.35mm
Number of turns, from one end of wire to the other one = 5.9 turns
The two ends of the spring are surfaced.
I don't know the stiffness value.

Pictures :







Where did you buy your 2 springs then ? What are the specs of the stiffer one ?

Thanks !

A+!