Whammy won't stay in tune.

[leftyjay]

bigsby springs are wider than mosrite springs.

[Mr. Bill]

Simulpost...

Before you order a Bigsby spring, please check the diameter of the original spring and compare it with the Bigsby. I'm not certain, but I believe that the Bigsby spring is larger than the original Mosrite springs and may cause additional fit problems.

Maybe somebody else here will have first hand information to share. If you wait, tonight I will measure the springs on my guitars and post the data here.

[Mr. Bill]

The Bigsby spring measures 18.5mm dia. and 25mm long. The Mosrite spring measures 14.5mm dia. and 28mm long.

My Mosrite has a Moseley tailpiece and the spring fits into a recessed cup that is too small to fit the Bigsby spring.

[SanchoPansen]

The Bigsby spring measures 18.5mm dia. and 25mm long. The Mosrite spring measures 14.5mm dia. and 28mm long.

My Mosrite has a Moseley tailpiece and the spring fits into a recessed cup that is too small to fit the Bigsby spring.

Thanks for taking the time to measure the original spring and sharing the data. Indeed, the Bigsby spring doesn't seem to be an adequate substitute. Maybe a hardware store can order something like the original spring. I'll make some calls and write a couple of mails and let's see what they say. Have to go there anywhere in order to buy a smaller nut and the teflon washers. And my Mk. V is still not back from repair (I'm sure the guitar store doesn't know what they are doing - it's been there for 2 months now). Thanks again for all the help from you guys!

[Mr. Bill]

I've gone back and read through the entire thread and I have a few questions for you.

When you use the bar and the strings stay flat or sharp, is it all of the strings that do this or mainly just one or two?

When you use the bar, does the entire bridge plate teeter on the height adjustment pins?

When you removed the strings did the rocker/string anchor pivot freely both forward and backwards with no binding or resistance?

All vibrato systems are based on balance. If anything goes wrong the balance will be thrown off and the guitar will not return to pitch. If the strings aren't stretched out the balance will be thrown off. If the strings are loose on the tuning posts or are binding in the string guide or on the zero fret the balance will be off. If the bridge moves or the strings don't seat properly on the anchor plate the balance will be off.

You need to investigate all of the possible problem areas and eliminate them to fix the problem.

[raygun85]

I'm in the minority on this, but I know that the strings will always bind on the zero-fret and string-guide. You can file down the slots but the strings are still touching the sides and they're still dragging across the zero-fret. Metal-to-metal contact creates friction. It doesn't matter if it touches the bottom of the string-guide or the sides, it's still metal-to-metal.

I've never played a guitar with a zero fret that stays perfectly in tune, even when excluding the vibrato - because some of us still bend strings a lot and that stretches the strings the opposite direction and causes them to go flat. It's really all about acceptable tolerances. How far off-pitch the strings go is a matter of individual player tolerance. Of course, we can reduce any possible variables, such as spring rate, axis on the vibrato, roller saddles, rocker bridges, graphite lubricant, nut sauce...etc...etc...etc...

But the strings are metal. The zero-fret is metal. The string-guide is metal. The strings touch both of them.

I'm always recommending to people that we built Mosrite-style guitars for to ditch the zero-fret and go with graphite or delrin for the nut. But everybody wants the metal. Why, I don't know. It's not really the greatest guitar innovation ever conceived. In my opinion, it's not worth much at all. I know this will start a string of rebuttals, but I'm speaking from honest observation.

[SanchoPansen]

@ray: My other Mosrite stays perfectly in tune, but I do get your point and I suppose you are right with that. It's all in your personal tolerance zone. BUT I can check with my tuner and I really don't see it go out of tune even after heavy whammy useage or bendings. But I'd prefer a different material like you suggested if available.

@bill: essentially that is what is wrong with the system! Sloppy production of all the parts which leads to a devastating total.

When you use the bar and the strings stay flat or sharp, is it all of the strings that do this or mainly just one or two?

ALL the strings go out of tune!

When you use the bar, does the entire bridge plate teeter on the height adjustment pins?

No, but the whole roller bridge seems to follow the movement, as it's floating on the height adjustment pins.

When you removed the strings did the rocker/string anchor pivot freely both forward and backwards with no binding or resistance?

Well, this is one of the sloppy production parts as mentioned above. It moves and is not sticky, but it's a cheap part. The drilling for the bolt leading through this part is terrible. It's not perfectly round and not cleaned/grinded on the inside. So this seems to cause some resistance and prevents the whammy from going back to it's original position when it's been pulled up.

All vibrato systems are based on balance.

And this is what went wrong. The complete alignment seems to be a bit out of tune (no pun intended). The bearings on the plate and the bolt leading through the bar are industrial standard parts and of good quality. But the plate and the arm are cheap casting (contains too much aluminium we suppose). I will try to grind/smoothen the tunnel inside the arm in order to minimize the resistance/friction. Maybe some clockmaker oil could help. My wife's a goldsmith and she also had a look at it. Another issue seems the be the alignment of the 2 bearings. They don't seem to be 100% parallel (we're talking less than a mm). All this leads to a 'not so good' whammy.
Yesterday I switched from .010s and went up to .011 - .052s. This helped a little, as the string tension seems to pull the whammy almost back into position. I wonder if an additional plate (or small washers) at the end of each string could help to build up more tension?!
Lastly I'm crossing fingers that I can swap my old Mark V system without filling and drilling anything in case of emergency...
Thanks again for all the useful replies!

[Bob Shade]

When you took the strings off of the vibrato and removed the spring, did you test the arm to see if it went through the pivot motion smoothly with no tension?

If the vibrato has no tension from strings and is binding anywhere during the up and down movement, this is your problem. This would mean the rocker is too wide for the plate and is getting bound up during the up and down movement.

In this case you will need to take the rocker apart from the plate and grind the sides of the rocker down just enough to give the rocker a little looser fit inside the vibrato plate.

Bob

[Mr. Bill]

The drilling for the bolt leading through this part is terrible. It's not perfectly round and not cleaned/grinded on the inside. So this seems to cause some resistance and prevents the whammy from going back to it's original position when it's been pulled up.

Somebody else here can correct me if I'm wrong, but the pivot pins should be solidly pressed into the string retainer so that the pins rotate in the two bearings. The pins do not rotate inside the string retainer. So if your plan was to open up the "tunnel" in the string retainer, don't.

The fact that the holes are not cleanly drilled leads me to believe that as Bob suggested, under string tension the pivot is binding and causing your problem. Possible fixes are to fill and redrill the string retainer holes to hold the pivot pins securely or replace the string retainer with a correctly drilled one.

[Bob Shade]

Respectfully, do not attempt to fill the holes and re-drill. This will not work and you will ruin your rocker. Trust me, I have hand made a load of tailpieces and I am familiar with this problem.

Shave the sides down that on the rocker that are binding up at the plate. This should resolve your issue. The bearings will still work if the holes for the pin are not perfectly in line, they would have to be WAY off for the pin to bind in the bearing. So I would highly suggest not tampering with the holes, as there is very little metal around them.

Bob