Headstock angle?

[popp]

noob question:

i am wondering if the headstock angle of the bolt-on versions is identical with the glued/set neck-versions of Mosrite guitars ?
I doubt that but couldn't find good pictures on the web for comparsion...

thank's
Michael

[popp]

someone asked the same question on the project guitar forum and got a few answers... i'm not sure if i understand it right but some headstocks seem to be angled while others are "scooped" (flat? fenderstyle?)... i'm confused.

I'd love to see pictures from a side view...

any help is much appreciated,
michael

[Veenture]

Yeah, this headstock angle-thing is an interesting point.
I'm also in the dark about the headstock slant of the bolt-on versions being identical (or not) with the glued/set neck-versions of Mosrite ...

Not wanting to stray too far from your thread now Michael but have you also noticed the angle of the WHOLE NECK in relation to the Mosrite body? This feature has intrigued me ever since I got my Hallmark 60 Custom this year and I even considered posting a thread on it "comparing notes" but never got round to it. (could't find good "side" photo's to illustrate my observation).
Yes so different to Fender's "flat" design of neck and "scooped out" headstock.

I feel that the slant of the Mosrite NECK could very well contribute to better playability, a fuller sound and longer sustain since the strings can now be situated considerably higher from the body than that of a Fender’s, for instance, as a result of the angled neck placement.

Just for the record, my Hallmark 60 Custom has a glued/set neck -also at an angle to the body- and angled headstock.

[TerryTNM]

The head angle needs to be enough to give sufficient down pressure to the strings going through the nut. In my case I get an 1 3/4 drop from the bottom of the fingerboard to the farthest end of the headcap. It measures 11 degrees. My necks start out at 2 1/4 thick. A Gretsch and a Gibson measured 12 degrees. I'm not sure who was the first to make the scoop neck, probably Fender. This was done obviously to save wood but also required string trees to keep the strings from popping out of the nut due to lack of head angle. A combination of scoop and angle eliminated the need for string trees.

Neck angle is needed to give proper bridge height. Depending on the tailpiece, the height of the string attaching point is going to dictate the minimum height of the bridge. Sufficient 'down' pressure is just as important at the bridge as it is at the nut. The Hallmark tremolo has an attaching height (they are staggered) of appx 5/8". You are going to need a bridge height of at least 13/16". Light down pressure decreases the vibration and increases the possibility of the string popping out of the saddle under heavy playing. I'm sure there are many more opinions on the subject but this is what I've observed.

-Terry

[Veenture]

Terry, we are so fortunate in getting yours and other’s professional insight and (practical) knowledge of guitar- design and construction on this forum; thanks for educating us.
I'm going to read your view on this matter again to let it sink into my amateur brain...

So can we safely assume that most (if not all) of Semie's Mosrite designs for the headstock are angled -at eleven(?) degrees, give and take one or two rare exceptions maybe?

[TerryTNM]

So can we safely assume that most (if not all) of Semie's Mosrite designs for the headstock are angled -at eleven degrees, give and take one or two rare exceptions maybe?

Veenture,

This is a hard one to put to paper. Sorry if it is confusing.

I don't think we can assume that at all. First, I am no expert or authority on anything. What I have observed is that Semie's first guitars had vritually no angle or scoop to the headstock. Joe Maphis' original double neck had some pretty unsightly slotted round head screws in the headcap to keep the strings in the nut. later efforts (pre-Ventures) did have nonscooped angled heads. I have a mid 50's Mosrite in the shop right now with a 12 degree angle head. The re-necking of Joe's original in 62 show scooped heads. Also, the Bob Regan doubleneck made in the late 50's show scooped heads but these necks may have been switched at a later date when it was restored. Some point in time Semie went to the scooped version (early 60's) prior to the Ventures model. I have no idea when the first scoop Mosrite was born. Maybe someone else has done the research.

My guitars are not the 'scooped' type.

[Veenture]

What you say is quite clear and enlightening...and let's not forget, there's nothing 'standard' about Mosrite I guess, which doesn't make things any easier for us
What can be confusing sometimes is that most people (like me) tend to think only of "THE VENTURES MODEL" whenever the word "Mosrite" is mentioned.
I do like to imagine that THE VENTURES models all have their headstocks angled.

Appreciate your effort Terry!

[MWaldorf]

This is fascinating. I found an image which may be helpful, it shows the difference between a flat (Fender style) and an angled (Gibson, Martin, etc) headstock. What is doesn't differentiate is the "scoop", with I think in this discussion means the difference in height between the level of the fretboard and the face of the headstock. In the image below both necks have "scoop":


Here are photos of angled headstocks with no scoop:


So, if I understand it correctly, Semie's guitars usually had some amount of angle to the headstock, but didn't regularly have a "scoop" until the Ventures model.

[TerryTNM]

Mel,
Good comparison image. I think Semie found a reasonable angle along with the scoop so they didn't need the string trees and still saved some on material.

You guys would know better than I on the amount of angle on the scoop head Mosrite's. Ed makes them all the time. I've never made a scoop neck. A scoop head makes it very difficult to put binding around. Devising a procedure for making the binding rabbet at the scoop is the problem. I would imagine that's the reason you don't see many bound headcaps on any scoop necks from any mfg. The headcaps on Joe's 2nd necks. The "binding" was cut from flat stock then heated and bent into the scoop. No rabbet was cut.

- Terry

[Veenture]

Hey, that's good Mel ........now if we could only get hold of some pics/drawings of the straight (Fender) NECK attachment as opposed to the Mosrite neck attachment (bolt-on or set/glued) at an angle. (I'm thinking here mainly about the Ventures model again). I remember seeing the outlines that Ed Elliot did on the four necks in his building project; one can clearly see the slanted line on the part which is to become the neck heel and that goes for the shape-to-be of the headstocks too!